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Talk:Doctor

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[edit] Doctor

  • While cleaning up the disambiguation page Doctor (disambiguation) I noted that virtually all links to Doctor intend to point to Physician. After cleaning up those links to directly point there, I have pointed this page to Physician and added a link to the disambiguation at the top of that page. Kershner 18:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Seems like a reasonable course of action. Peyna 22:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ayman al-Zawahiri

Ayman al-Zawahiri is a real medical doctor, the name is not an alias, he was a professor in Mansoura_University faculty of medicine before he travels to afghanistan and becomes such a well known terrorist, many of his family members are medical professors as well and are very respected people here in Mansoura, Egypt. 84.36.12.154 18:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Docotr D G Hessayon

What about this crazy guy who wrote gardening books, or did he really? He may not have existed.

What an enigma.

[edit] "original use of the term"

This article states that the use of Dr to mean holder of a research degree (PhD etc) is the "original use of this term". I am not sure that this is true - as far as I understand the PhD is a relatively recent innovation (eg about 100 years old) and the term "doctor" has been used in relation to medical practitioners, senior clerics and senior lawyers for much longer than this. If it is indeed true that the PhD as a degree has existed for a long time and is the "original use" of the term doctor, this needs a reference. Ceiriog (talk) 16:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

It needs to be said that the accompanying Dab page is not an article, and that this kind of material does not belong in a Dab.
That being said, the Latin root of Doctor means not physician but teacher, and the concept of doctorates came into being at a time when the state of medicine was so little advanced that "surgeon" meant a despised lout, working with his hands, and capable of nothing more complicated than setting fractures, bandaging, performing amputations, and perhaps doing blood-letting. (Chirgeon, from Gk chir-  ; chir- meaning hand, as in chirality=handedness, and wikt:chiropodist=hand-and-foot practitioner and wikt:chiropractor=practitioner who relies most heavily on manual manipulation.) This as opposed to physicians, exalted personages who administered medicines that would adjust the humor and had no reason to touch their patients. I don't know if medicine was part of the first universities, but it's not obvious that it was worthy. The PhD may not have existed until, say, the 18th or 19th century, but i'd bet doctorates in theology were as early as the spread of the formal degree of "doctor" beyond the first two or three universities that granted them. So the concept originated in degrees like PhDs rather than those like MD.
--Jerzy•t 03:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
According to Douglas Guthrie,[1] who bases his account on L Thorndike,[2] medical men were first called "Doctor" at the Medical School of Salerno. He states that that the Emperor Frederick II decreed in 1221 that no one should practice medicine until he had been publicly examined and approved by the masters of Salerno. The course lasted 5 years, and to start one had to be 21 years old and show proof of legitimacy and of three years study of logic. The course was followed by a year of supervised practice. After the laureation ceremony the practitioners could call themselves "magister" or "doctor." Early universities like Padua, Bologna, Paris and Oxford awarded degrees in medicine. These degrees may not have involved research, but I doubt that mediaeval theologians were encouraged to do "research" in the modern sense either.
Surgeons were not despised in antiquity: Galen, the physician whose medical writings had, like Aristotle's, attained the status of church dogma by the early middle ages, started his career as surgeon to the gladiators. The separation of medicine from surgery may have accelerated after the Council of Tours held in 1163 declared, "Ecclesia abhorret a sanguine:" i.e. "The Church abhors the shedding of blood." This was at a time when most qualified physicians in Europe were in holy orders. A decree of Pope Innocent III in 1215 is also claimed to have contributed. However, in late mediaeval England and Scotland royal charters authorised fully qualified surgeons to use the title of "Master" or "Maister." NRPanikker (talk) 14:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Cool research!
I'm too lazy to go beyond WP and what pops out from my own skull, but i did come up with
so we're still left wondering whether "doctor" was applied to all the fields at the same time.
(As to theological research, i take it you're equating it to heresy, but i think you'd find that such research was always ongoing, that teaching theology was entrusted to those capable of or aspiring to it, and that heresy is not the label for "anything new" but for the work of those who were wrong about what refinements of the prior scholarly corpus would be useful to those in power, or about which interests were about to come to power.
(Actually i picked theology bcz it was all that came to mind when i tried to recall what Faust said he'd studied in Goethe; i'd forgotten law, philosopy, and, yes, medicine. But Faust is supposed to be a 1500-ish figure, so i was looking much too late!)
--Jerzy•t 06:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  1. ^ Douglas Guthrie, A History of Medicine. London: Thomas Nelson 1945, p. 107
  2. ^ L Thorndike, History of Magic and Experimental Science. New York 1934 - 41, Vol. 2 of 6

[edit] Professional titles

How does a table sound for this section? Something like:

Academic title Degree(s)
Doctor of Chiropractic DC Chiropractor
Doctor of Optometry OD, B.Optom Optometrist

This way, we could have both academic title/degree plus the common term. If you disagree, please don't simply revert edits but discuss the issue here. (EhJJ)TALK 10:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Not every dentist earns a "doctor of dental medicine", same goes for many other profesions. I don't feel this is the best way to list every profession. This is the reason I feel it is would be more correct to list the profession and then the equivalent degrees people in theses professions may have earned. Jwri7474 (talk) 22:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

:Regardless of whether or not the individual holds the "Doctor of _" degree, they are usually permitted by regulation to use the title "Doctor of _" and "_ist". What if we did something different? I'm thinking the following...

The following professionals may use the title "Doctor" if they have the appropriate academic degree or registration/licence:
etc.
Thoughts? (EhJJ)TALK 23:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC) Never mind. Looks fine to me. (EhJJ)TALK 23:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment Please keep in mind that this is a disambiguation page, not an article. As such, there are specific guidelines that govern how it is formatted and presented. --Ckatzchatspy 04:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Definitions/references

Due to overlapping edits, the summary of my last reversion addressed the wrong issue. But there is a Manual of Style for disambiguation pages, and references aren't necessary or appropriate.

And if anyone can explain to me why a fundamentally literate person would type "Doctor" into the search bar when they're looking for the article about dentists, I would probably stop removing that link. That is the purpose of a disambiguation page: to direct the user to the article he is looking for, when there is more than one article that could be reasonably referred to by the same name. Propaniac (talk) 23:03, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

No "fundamentally literate person" is going to type doctor into a search looking for silly nicknames of athletes, etc. My entry on health care practitioners is sourced as a legitimate meaning of the word doctor. Your pop culture/nicknames are not. You deleted almost all the medical entries, although you have no source to support your interpretation. Wikipedia is not Entertainment Weekly or Sports Illustrated. The reason for citing the source is that you want to make this page primarily about sports and entertainment uses of "doctor" as nicknames or character titles, which is in no way encyclopedic. --Prowler08 (talk) 23:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
You're making it very obvious that you do not understand the purpose of a disambiguation page. The pop culture usages are listed because someone who wants to read about a character known only as "Doctor" is reasonably likely to look for that article at Doctor. It is not because those articles are more important than other articles. I am not saying that a dentist or a veterinarian is not a doctor, I'm saying that someone looking for those articles will not be looking at this page (or at least that nobody, including yourself, has made any argument that someone looking for those articles will be looking at this page). I can assure you I have absolutely no attachment to any of the TV shows, films, fictional characters, or people that are listed here (until I began work on this page, I hadn't heard of any of them); my criteria for inclusion is, "Does the linked content suggest that a user could refer to this person, place or thing as simply 'Doctor'?"
If you're going to continue this argument, I strongly suggest you first consult the WP:Disambiguation and Manual of Style guidelines, both of which have been linked here many times. Propaniac (talk) 02:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag

I understand perfectly well the purpose of a disambiguation page. And I daresay, a person would enter doctor looking for different types of health care professionals before they would use it to find some of these obscure sports figures, TV characters, TV shows, etc. listed on this dab page. The dictionary definition I supplied is using doctor as a stand alone term, not just as a title in front of one's name (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/doctor). The health care doctors that should absolutely be listed as per the previous dictionary link are physician, dentist, and veterinarian. Others also may be listed. The following sentence, or something to the same effect, should precede the listing: The following health care practitioners that possess a doctorate may be referred to as a doctor. I noticed it was you who deleted (without discussion), the many references to doctors that were already on this page, and that you did so under the rubric of cleanup. Doctor would also more likely be used in modern culture to describe a health care professional than a Doctor of the Church. Two IPs have tried to reinsert a much longer list of health care doctors than I think is necessary, but I agree with their version more than I do yours. I am inserting a POV dispute tag on this page as I and two IPs obviously disagree with your interpretation of the proper content of this page. --Prowler08 (talk) 08:00, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

The dictionary lists types of doctors. I do not disagree that a dentist is a type of doctor. I disagree that anybody would need help figuring out that the Dentist article is at Dentist and not Doctor. Someone would not search for Pet if they wanted to read about cats or dogs. Someone would not search for Movie star if they were looking for the article about Johnny Depp.
I absolutely agree that it would make sense for someone to be looking for a list of different types of doctors. I am honestly very, very surprised that there doesn't seem to be such a list; I spent several minutes searching for one when I did the initial cleanup. If you or anyone else wants to create a List of types of doctors, I would be perfectly content for that list to be linked from this page. But the fact that no such list exists at another title does not mean that it belongs on this page. And allowing links here that clearly don't fit the purpose of the page leaves the door open for people to add more and more links that don't belong here, and then the page becomes a horribly cluttered mess. Propaniac (talk) 16:49, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Using the aforementioned logic, most of the entries on this dab page should be deleted. I can't imagine anyone typing in just doctor to find any of the following, all of which are listed on the page:

--Prowler08 (talk) 18:56, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

You know, you could have just said "But this page lists items that are known as 'The Doctor' or 'Doctors' or 'The Doctors', not 'Doctor'" instead of going through and listing all those items here. Yes, this page combines multiple disambig terms, which is not uncommon with terms that are different forms of the same word or phrase. Combining "Doctor" and "The Doctor" is not the same as combining "Doctor" and "Dentist."
And the fictional characters do all seem to be known as "Doctor," so I don't know what your point is there. Some of the living people who are nicknamed "Doctor" are somewhat iffy for inclusion, but I left them in as long as their article indicated that they were called Doctor in some context. Propaniac (talk) 03:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Wait, was your point that since you can't imagine it, they shouldn't be included, as an attempt to attack my own imposition of "POV" on this page? Because I've blatantly asked if anyone can imagine a user who ends up at this page looking for the article about dentists. You have not said that you can imagine such a user; you said that a user could be looking for a list of types of doctors, which I would be perfectly fine with linking to, if such a list existed. I don't really think an opinion counts as a point-of-view if nobody on Earth disagrees with it. Propaniac (talk) 03:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I listed them to show which ones I thought were questionable. You seem to be personalizing this, let's try to stick to the subject of discussion. This page is listed above as part of WikiProject Medicine. Because of your deletions, without discussion, of all but one medical entry, this dab page should no longer be part of the project. As to your assertion that "I don't really think an opinion counts as a point-of-view if nobody on Earth disagrees with it," well obviously, some people did agree with me, since there were all these various types of doctors listed here and there was discussion about the various fields. Or have you become the arbiter of what others think? Physician is the formal term, as is dentist, as is veterinarian. Doctor is the informal term for these professions. --Prowler08 (talk) 04:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Since you didn't say why you thought those entries were questionable (and still haven't said so), I assumed I was supposed to infer the reason; I apologize if I guessed incorrectly.
I don't particularly feel that the page should be a part of the Medicine WikiProject, but since I don't know anything about that project, I don't really care either way. But that's entirely irrelevant to the question of what should be on the page. Pages and articles aren't edited to match whatever WikiProject has decided to claim them; it's the other way around.
I think it's a fairly silly argument that because people added items to the list before anyone had said that those items shouldn't be added, those people should be assumed to perpetually disagree with any and all possible reasons for excluding those items, and this assumed, perpetual, utterly silent disagreement should dissuade anyone from ever modifying the page's structure in the future. That does seem to be the argument you're applying here in saying that I should have taken those editors' previous actions as disagreement with my stated reasons for cleaning up the page.
Further response is below. Propaniac (talk) 21:15, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Consider what the user is looking for

I guess the question is: when somebody types "Doctor" in the search bar (or has a wikilink to the word), what are they probably looking for? Here is my thought:
  1. Most people are looking for either Doctor (title) or Physician.
  2. Very few people are looking for the twenty or so rare uses of the term.
So, should we just move this page to Doctor (disambiguation) and make Doctor a redirect to Doctor (title) or Physician (with a link to the disambig page)? (EhJJ)TALK 04:27, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I feel that arguing over this is silly when it is easy to list the other health care doctors. And once again, it makes much more sense listing health care doctors than these sports and pop culture listings. Also, it's not just the search box, it's also linking. If the term doctor is linked on a veterinary article, a dental article, a podiatric article, etc. and it redirects here, which has excluded these fields, does that mean that the previously mentioned articles misused the term of doctor? Finally, several dictionaries, as my dictionary link above indicates, agree with me about the popular use of the term, since that is what dictionaries primarily gauge their definitions by. --Prowler08 (talk) 04:43, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
So you're envisioning an article about dentistry that links to doctor but not dentist? It's futile for Wikipedia to try to guard against all things that editors could possibly do that make no sense.
Seriously, if I copy the list of types of doctors that used to be here to List of types of doctors and place a link to that list on this page, will you be sated? I'd really rather not argue about this forever (which does not mean that I will give into your opinion if you say that solution would not be satisfactory).
And as to whether Doctor should be a redirect, I'm pretty much 50-50 either way. If it were to redirect, Physician seems like a much more obvious choice, but if there's substantial argument for Doctor (title), that indicates that it would be better to keep the disambiguation page here, even if most of the traffic is for those two entries. Propaniac (talk) 21:15, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Gajany

A well-known princess, but hidden for many years. Born on the 27/11/1001. Born in an island. many historians inform that there is no one beautiful than her that was born on that island. After many years no one was ever named that. The name was hidden. now in 1996 a baby girl was named that and was born on the same island on the same date and month. Many religious mons say she has rerborn to take revenge and bring her dreams also make it come true, to be a doctor! Where could that miracle person be... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.29.90 (talk) 19:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] getting lost

my son is 25 and he can not go anyware with out me making him a map. what can i do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.214.182.197 (talk) 19:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

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