Talk:Nüwa
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[edit] Delete Random Speculation
I'm removing all comparative speculation, even though it is obviously more cautiously worded than before. Reasons: 1. Comparison does not provide meaningful insight. The few superficial similarities between myths is presented without any "impact" and thus adds nothing to our understanding of Nuwa. 2. Comparison implies connection. By presenting a comparison it associates these two myths in the minds of the lay reader. We should not be laying the foundations for conspiracy theories about the Egyptian origions of Chinese civilization, or vice versa. 3. These appear to be "independent research" although that is really generous. A more accurate term would be random speculation. There are no citations. 4. Comparisons are superficial and over-generalized. Saying that there is similarity between these myths is like saying "Burt Reynolds is similar to Hitler" because they both have facial hair situated between nose and mouth. So I'm deleting the whole ridiculous section, unless someone can make a compelling case for why we should be comparing NvWa to any western mythology. --Ouyangwulong (talk) 06:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- You certainly have my blessing ;-) Not sure you got the whole point of the 'cautious re-wording', though: The idea was to refute the whole Nuwa/Noah thing and to demonstrate once and for all why it's obviously based in nothing but wishful thinking and sloppy association. Just deleting it might prompt someone to simply smuggle the 'original' version back in (hope not, but it happened before - see the history of this article - with people claiming their 'ideas' got 'suppressed'). Well, just for the record:
- None of the core motives of the tradition of Nuwa (creation of mankind, repair of heaven, union with brotherly consort) are found in the story of Noah (destruction of mankind by divine wrath, universal flood, escape of the righteous by means of an ark).
- Noah and Deucalion/Pyrrha have remote similarities, but Noah and Nuwa do not share any.
- Noah only 'sounds like' Nuwa if you use the contemporary pronunciations in English and Mandarin. Noah has a ח at the end (Heth) - it's a kh sound, it's not a silent [h] - that would be ה (He). If I follow Bernard Karlgren's Analytic Dictionary of Chinese and Sino-Japanese - quite a safe bet - the Middle Chinese pronunciation of nv was niwo, the second syllable is wa - doesn't sound much like No-akh, does it?
- --Hakseng (talk) 05:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Copy-edit
Hi everyone! I came to this article to help copy-edit the "sources" section because it was in the backlog of articles needing copy edit, but I decided to replace the copyedit tag with a rewrite tag, and leave comments, instead.
Suggestions for improvement:
- Please follow the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lists of works) for a formatting guide.
- Please use an invisible comment to communicate with another editor, and not "(Note: please maintain pattern of date, author, book, chapter, account, and detail for future additions.)". Using <!-- TEXT HERE --> will allow editors, and not readers, to see the text.
- If these works are sources used also for the rest of the article, please consider placing them in a citation section.
Okie that's all, and feel free to say hi to me on my talk page *grin* -Samuel tan85 (talk) 03:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Citations
Does anyone have more direct references to the stories? The way Nuwa is commonly represented does not fit the source documents, as far as I am aware. The Nuwa character is thought by some to be a tribal designation, as a creator or a goddess as typically portrayed. mamgeorge 20:00, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- There need not necessarily be a "source document", as Nuwa is a folk goddess, and a lot of legends are gleaned from folk sources. She is not a historical or litarary figure. Mandel 09:48, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
The conclusions that Nuwa is a creator, a goddess, a myth, or even feminine are all assumptions. The point of the documentation is to provide the basis for those assumptions. Others looking at the basis for the stories may uncover a more consistent conclusion. The classifications are ultimately misleading. mamgeorge 16:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- Although I did not originate this article, I provided specific details for the authors and books since the above posts. If you believe more is needed, please be specific on what exactly needs to be added beyond date, author, book, chapter, title, details. The two sources I could not identify I did not add; eventually they may need to be removed.
- mamgeorge 21:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Deletes
At the moment, there's no citation for anything in this article. As it stands, it should be deleted. PiCo 02:52, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
- There are procedures and due process to do everything on wikipedia. Please use them. The article cannot be summarily blanked or deleted unless you put up a deletion request that people will vote on. I would suggest that first you use one of the templates available to request sources or documentation. I have no idea where the original contributors got their information, but I assume good faith that they did not make it up on their own, as I have also read similar information in many, many books that cover Chinese mythology. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting AfD, but I am saying that this is a seriously weak article so long as it it has absolutely no references. PiCo 22:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
- Ah.. Well I agree with you fully on that point, and someone should definitely take the time to look some of this stuff up and get the proper sources, preferably the contributors who first put it here...! But I have no doubts that it all could be sourced, it just looks weak without it... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 00:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Proposed
The stories in "wife", "creator", "maintainer" should be cited; preferably with the sources. The point of the dated references was to show (among other things) the development of this myth over time. Merely saying "it is said" could be a wrong or confused recollection. This is an encyclopedia article. Although one goal could be "catalog Nuwa myths", those wanting to understand the development of the myth may prefer "catalog Nuwa development as a myth".
- Without citations on the supplied quotations, they become stories only. Perhaps unquoted stories should be removed? Is that what Pico (above) was intending? mamgeorge 16:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Similarities
Similarities between Fuxi-Nuwa and Enki-Ninki of Sumerian mythology include the creation of man from clay, the serpentine features, the rescue of man from the flood, and the return of knowledge and kingship to man afterwards. Fuxi-Nuwa appear to be echoes of Sumerian lore. Both were also brother-sister and husband-wife as well. jdwilkins
- I agree that is true in generalities. That can be broadened to include similarities to the Hebrew Noah, Egyptian Nun, Mesopotamian Ziusudra, Indian Manu, Europe Deucalion, etc. To effectively identify a literary pattern, a point by point comparison should be done on the relevant sources. That might be the subject of a new article. Note that the creation, clay, serpent, knowledge, flood, cycle has used to justify a both a Universal Tradition in religion, and a competing claim of Global Archetypes in Psychology. mamgeorge 16:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dating
Eiorgiomugini, I see your point. Some of the dates refer to the individual, some to the dynasty (because a date for the person is not available). I can eplicitly change that.
- I do not know what "bitter" referes to in your edit description.
- Thanks, mamgeorge 14:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Character Relationships?
Just as a point of interest on correspondence between Chinese antiquity and the Biblical accounts, the Chinese character for SHIP (large sea-going vessel) is made up of the pictographs for "eight persons" and "boat" which corresponds to the Bible account of 8 persons (Noah, his wife, 3 sons, their wives) that survived a global deluge in an ark.
Anonymous, thank you for your contribution. I am intrigued by the possibility you present here, however, I have reason to question that derivation.
- The character 船 [chuan2] boat, is considered to be made up of the characters 舟 [zhou1] boat, and [yan3] divided outlets. Yan3 is itself made up of 八 [ba1] eight, and 口 [kou3] mouth, which makes sense for your suggestion. Here, however, the ba1 character is apparantly used in the sense to divide, as in 分 [fen1] to divide. In this case, ba1 means divide with a 刀 [dao1] knife. I base this on Weigers "Chinese Characters" (ISBN 0486-213218) now scanned in google books. If you have a more detailed etymolgy, or a reference indicating a more reliable derivation, please describe it.
- Another possible link to Noah based on the characters may possibly be found in the phonetic sound of the name of Nuwa (compared to the sound of the name in Hebrew, Hindi, Egyptian, Aztec versions of the story, et. al.).
- Additionally, Noah is often linked to Fuxi, whose etymology "may" have relationship to the characters for "rest"; this happens to be the Hebrew meaning of of the word Noah. There are several extra threads of analysis here; such as the links between their serpentine appearance to other flood myths, the "dog head" element related to other myths, etc. While these seem tantalizing possibilities, in my opinion these links are too tenuous to rely upon and require more evidence. mamgeorge 05:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually this Myth(creation and what not) has all the reasons to be Chinese in origine- mainly because China is the "seat" of all major floods you can imagine, killing hundred of thousands a year for millenia! second contender would be the Amazon rain forest. There is rarely any drop of rain in the Middle East.
This story of Chinese origin was carried by ancient merchants to the West via Persia(present day Iran) where Jewish tribes were held captured in Babylon.
So next time do, please do question your preacher to cite any recorded evidence of any kind about major flood in their 40 square miles of desert covered Judaic land, or even mount Ararat area in Turkey if it ever happened at all-before you insinuate how the Chinese boat character suppose to signify. I can as well say it represents the 8 Chinese immortals riding the boat(zhou means very small boat actually) to attend the birthday party of Xi Huang Mu! Edluu (talk) 05:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Nüwa and Deluge traditions
This isn't a Judeo-Christian encyclopedia. The wording in this section assumes stories told in Genesis is the originator of the legends of other cultures. It needs to be reworded or taken out completely.
Are you sure you meant that to apply to the section "Nüwa and Deluge traditions"? I can possibly see your point in the "Is Nüwa related to Noah?" section, but even that begins with a caveat. The paragraph starting, "Those who read the Bible literally..." may fit better in another article; for that could allow a more formal, detailed, and consistant treatment (perhaps in Deluge traditions?). Incidentally, that phrase "Those who read the Bible literally" was not an assumption of the readers at all; it is in itself a caveat. The only unequivocal assumptions were in the phrase "The wording in this section assumes...". mamgeorge 04:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The "Nüwa and Deluge traditions" section in general focuses primarily on Judeo-Christian mythology. It's also utterly ridiculous. It entirely confuses the nature of the various Nüwa myths- namely that they are completely separate myths. In one story Nüwa saves the earth from a catastrophe (not a global flood, but a general imbalance of nature, with flooding as one symptom), and only in later myths is she the wife of Fuxi.--128.119.7.141 (talk) 05:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Is that so? I also see the mentioning of pre-Christian and non-European mythology. And there is a proposition in the paragraph on the Mythological connections in the article that says: 'while in the myth of Nüwa the creation of mankind is not linked to any preceding disaster and disconnected from the 'repair of heaven' motive,' while the Wiki-article on Fu Xi does mention a preceding disaster. Yuhana (talk) 21:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Nu wa.jpg
Image:Nu wa.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 04:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] merge Nu Wa Niang Niang
merge. Nu Wa Niang Niang was established for the role of Nüwa in Fengshen Yanyi. Do we really need it? Even though we may need to establish a so specific article, the title does not limit its scope to Fengshen Yanyi. Maybe Nüwa (Fengshen Yanyi) will be better. --Neo-Jay 00:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Nüwa and Noah?
Is "'Is Nüwa related to Noah?'" really an appropriate subheading for this section? Of the four bullet points listed, only of them has anything to do with Noah at all. Flutterman (talk) 02:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
