From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WP:RD/L Language #eee #f5f5f5 #eee #aaa #aaa #aaa #00f #36b #000 #00f language Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language Language WP:RD/L

Welcome to the language reference desk.

Is there any way I can get a faster answer?

Yes, you can search first. Please do this.

Search the reference desk archive to see if your question has been asked and answered earlier.

Entering search terms in the box to the left may locate useful articles in Wikipedia.
Many questions can be immediately answered by a simple google search.

Yes, if you need advice or opinions, it's better to ask elsewhere.
- The reference desk does not answer (and will probably remove) requests for medical or legal advice. Ask a doctor, dentist, veterinarian, or lawyer instead.
- The reference desk does not answer requests for opinions or predictions about future events. Do not start a debate; please seek an internet forum instead.

How do I word my question for the best results?

Include a meaningful title. Do not write "Question" or "Query", but write a few words that briefly tell the volunteers the subject of the question.
Include context. Include links to any information that might help to understand your question. Tell us what part of the world your question applies to.
Do not provide your contact information. E-mail or home addresses, or telephone numbers, will be removed. You must return to this page to get your answer.
Type ~~~~ (four tildes) at the end of your question. This signs your contribution so volunteers know who wrote what in the conversation.
If your question is homework, show that you have attempted an answer first, and we will try to help you past the stuck point. If you don't show an effort, you probably won't get help. The reference desk will not do your homework for you.

When will I get an answer?

It may take several days. Come back later and check this page for responses. Later posts may add more information. Please, post your question on only one section of the reference desk.

After reading the above, you may
ask a new question by clicking here.

How to answer a question

Main article: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

Be thorough. Provide as much of the answer as you are able to.
Be concise, not terse. Please write in a clear and easily understood manner. Keep your answer within the scope of the question as stated.
Provide links when available, such as wikilinks to related articles, or links to the information that you used to find your answer.
Be polite and assume good faith, especially with users new to Wikipedia.
Don't edit others' comments, except to fix formatting errors that interfere with readability.
Don't give any legal or medical advice. The reference desk cannot answer these types of questions.

Choose a topic:

Language desk

[edit] June 28

[edit] Eulsa Treaty

Hello! Can anybody translate the table "조약 전문" on [1]? Yes, I know, it is a lot of stuff, but I need the translation for recherches on Eulsa Treaty. And is anything about signing or sealing of the treaty stated in the discussion on this site? Thank you, very much. Doc Taxon (talk) 10:19, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

You might get more responses if you could find the original text, rather than the Hangul transliteration. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:58, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Also side comment: the English word for the French noun "recherche" is "research". "Recherche" in English is something else. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Possessive form of Jonas

Hi, if I have a name that ends in s (say Jonas) and I would like to make it possessive, how should I do it? Would it be Jonas' or Jonas's? Is there any WP policy on that? Thanks a lot. Renata (talk) 12:01, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

See WP:MOS#Possessives for our policy, and Apostrophe#Possessive apostrophe for a general discussion. Algebraist 12:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

More specifically, see Apostrophe#Singular_nouns_ending_with_an_.22s.22_or_.22z.22_sound; most style guides would suggest "Jonas's", but Wikipedia's style guide doesn't care whether you use "Jonas'" or "Jonas's" as long as you use it consistently within the article. - Nunh-huh 12:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Great! Thank you guys. Renata (talk) 13:58, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Word Derivation

What is the derivation of the woodworking term "French Cleat?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.233.40.225 (talk) 15:46, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, "cleat" is an old Germanic word, meaning 'lump', but more recently 'wedge' (and the meaning in the sense of a shoe-stud is from the 19th century). So it's the 'wedge' meaning that's implied. I can't find an etymology for the specific term, but it's fairly common for techniques and styles to pick up national names like that. Either it came from France, or at least it was percieved as having come from France. Such origins aren't always accurate, or representative. (e.g. French fries) --Pykk (talk) 07:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] June 29

[edit] Quick German sentence-translation

"Wir haben uns dann ausgezogen und ich bin in sie reingekommen." Any help, please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.9.226.195 (talk) 04:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

"Then we got undressed and I came in her". Seems to have been an unsatisfyingly brief encounter. +An gr 05:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Hehe. Very nice. Thank you, sir! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.9.226.195 (talk) 07:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Noghl

Does anybody know what that word would be in correct Arabic script? I was hoping to check if there is an article in the Farsi or any other Wikipedias. If anybody has the skills to add one if not that would be great. Thanks - Taxman ^Talk 17:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Apparently it is "نقل". There is a Farsi article, fa:نقل. It's also an Arabic word, but it means "transport" (ar:نقل). Adam Bishop (talk) 19:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks. - Taxman ^Talk 19:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

There is a difference between farsi نقل and arabic نقل. If you look closely at the opening sentence of fa:نقل, you'll see the vowel mark for 'waw'. Arabic نقل ('transport') would have alef as its vowel mark. Probably, the Farsi word is not an Arabic loanword. --Soman (talk) 13:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Bangkok, Thailand?

Americans, as we all know, love to disambiguate placenames by sticking a comma after them, followed by the appropriate state (Dallas, Texas; Des Moines, Iowa; etc).

They also – to everyone else's chagrin – do this to various other places around the world, such as Madrid, Spain or London, England.

But it seems that the rule doesn't apply to places in Asia, such as Tokyo, Japan; Delhi, India; or Baghdad, Iraq. Why might this be? 87.112.4.155 (talk) 20:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

A wild guess, but maybe it's because due to America's history it's far more likely to have a town in America named after a European town (like for instance Paris, Texas) than after an Asian one (imagine, say, "Ulan Bator, Maine"?). If there is a possibility of a mix-up, you might as well be cautious. TomorrowTime (talk) 20:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

There are Delhi, Ontario and Calcutta, Ohio ... and Bagdad, Florida could cause some confusion. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:30, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

There's also a Bagdad, California. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

This sage advice from a venerable Wikipedian may be worth repeating:

Concerning "Paris, France" One reads at Wikipedia: "Charles Perrault was born in Paris, France to a wealthy bourgeois family." In some circles "Paris" just does mean "Paris-France." Paris, Kentucky is widely referred to as "Paris, Kentucky" if it is discussed at all. In my family, some of whom live in Louisville actually, anyone using the expression "Paris-France" hears a murmur of "not Paris, Kentucky" interpolated among his attentive listeners. Thus: "Charles Perrault was born in Paris France not Paris Kentucky to a wealthy bourgeois family." I hope every reader will make the same mental interpolation whenever they read the words "Paris, France." Thus, though one dare not correct the usage, one may still derive some entertainment.

(With apologies for my formatting - please feel free/obliged to rearrange for eye-pleasingness). Fouracross (talk) 11:31, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why the OP thinks of this as an American habit. Today's Main Page has the sentence, "A freight train carrying liquefied petroleum gas derails and explodes in Viareggio, Italy, killing at least 15 people and injuring more than 50 others" (emphasis added). Would a non-American writer have simply written "...in Viareggio, killing...", thus assuming that his readers know where Viareggio is? Or would a non-American have written "...in Viareggio (Italy), killing..."? Or "...in Viareggio, which is in Italy, killing..."? Or what? And why is writing it like this "to everyone else's chagrin"? +An gr 11:50, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The BBC, for examples, says "the northern Italian town of Viareggio" [2], which sounds much more euphonious to non-American ears. 209.251.196.62 (talk) 14:12, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Because grammatically it makes the appearance that "Italy" is a part of the name of the city (which is not the case), and people are usually allergic to somebody coming and mangling the name of their city. Plus, the OP did not mention Viareggio, but well-known historical cities like Madrid and London. (That's not to say that Viareggio is not a historical city, but it is much less known.) Writing these as "Madrid, Spain" or "London, England" is taken as a sign of total ignorance or even an insult to national pride, because every educated person is supposed to know that Madrid is in Spain. As for Viareggio, the name is obviously Italian. If that is not sufficient, there are many other ways how to disambiguate it. To begin with, your typical news article will start with something like "(AFP/Rome)" right below the heading, which should be enough to set the reader to Italy. Failing that, you can always use "in Viareggio in Italy" or "in the Tuscan city of Viareggio" or something similar. Of course, that's only a problem for printed media; on Wikipedia, "in Viareggio" works just fine. — Emil J. 12:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see that it makes the appearance that "Italy" is a part of the name of the city; after all, it's separated from the name of the city by a comma. With American cities, the state is not part of the name of the city either. The name of the city where I grew up is "Austin", not "Austin, Texas"; if someone writes "Austin, Texas", it's only to disambiguate it so the reader knows that the Austin in Texas (as opposed to the ones in Minnesota, Quebec, or Western Australia) is meant. As you say, "in Viareggio in Italy" is an option, but I'm still skeptical that the "in Viareggio, Italy" locution is somehow typically American. I'm even more skeptical of the OP's basic premise that Americans are more likely to say or write "London, England" and "Madrid, Spain" than they are to say "Tokyo, Japan" and "Delhi, India". (But the OP isn't the first person to notice and comment on this habit: productions of Candide usually get a laugh when Cunegonde sings, "Here I am in Paris, France" in "Glitter and Be Gay", precisely because it seems so absurd that she would feel the need to disambiguate like that.) +An gr 13:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

With American cities, the state is not part of the name of the city either. Sure. But only Americans are exposed to this idiosyncratic usage. Non-Americans are not, and therefore they may not understand the construction in such a way, since it's not otherwise used in English: you can't say "in kitchen, my apartment" or "in drawer, the writing table". Comma or no comma, it makes the appearance that both parts denote the same object because that's what apposition of two noun phrases normally means, for non-Americans: "in Viareggio, his birthplace". — Emil J. 13:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

To judge from Adam Bishop's answers below, and some comments at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)/Archive 5, it would appear that Canadians and Australians are also exposed to this not-so-idiosyncratic-after-all usage. +An gr 14:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

It remains idiosyncratic, from the grammatical point of view, whether or not Canadians are exposed to it. In what other context would a comma be used in this way? It wouldn't. Thus, this usage is idiosyncratic. 209.251.196.62 (talk) 14:58, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I've often – well, more than once – heard people from Texas say "Austin Texas" over and over (even after it has been clearly disambiguated in the conversation), making Austin my own favorite example of the pattern; so it's funny that Angr says otherwise. (I wasn't aware of the other Austins, and will forget them as soon as I close this page, though of course I'm far from surprised that they exist.) It seems that to many Americans the state name is like a surname, and perhaps some feel uncomfortable referring to a city by its first name alone if they're not on intimate terms! One occasionally hears the same pattern with British county names – "four thousand holes in Blackburn Lancashire" – but less often, I think, than with in ("Huddersfield in Yorkshire"). —Tamfang (talk) 15:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

For me, the only one that's really like a surname is "Washington DC", which I would probably continue to say even after it was clear that I didn't mean Washington State. +An gr 16:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

There is definately a difference between American and European presentations of place names. The 'town name, state name' formula is quite typical American, and its usage is clearly seen amongst American wikipedians. To some extent is a practical response to the fact that there are 1,000s of cities in the US sharing names with other namesakes in other US states. But it is also part of notion of American exceptionalism. An American wikipedian often writes 'A. B. is a writer from Albany, New York', and would rarely write 'A. B. is a writer from Albany, United States'. The US state is but on par with non-US countries. I think there was a lengthy discussion on this at 'naming conventions' in the past. --Soman (talk) 13:30, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

At Wikipedia, I wouldn't let "A. B. is a writer from Albany, New York" or even "A. B. is a writer from Albany, New York" stand. I'd edit it to either "A. B. is a writer from Albany, New York, USA" or "A. B. is an American writer from Albany, New York". I'd be interested in knowing whether Canadians follow the American or the European custom before asserting American exceptionalism. +An gr 13:46, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

We would say Albany, New York; we might even just say "Albany" assuming that everyone already knows it is in New York. We also find it really irritating when Americans ignore our provinces, and instead say "Toronto, Canada". Adam Bishop (talk) 13:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

But would you say "London, England" to disambiguate it from your own London? +An gr 14:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I would, but I'm from that London. Most Canadians would say "London, Ontario". Our own mighty Thames is also not the default for most Canadians. Sometimes people say "real London" and "fake London" (and "fake Thames"). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:26, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

If you have a look at the archives of Wikipedia's naming conventions, you'll see it made manifest over and over again – by many different people, from a number of different countries – that this comma usage is an American habit that really irritates other people. 209.251.196.62 (talk) 13:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese question

What does "touitsu to seigi to jiyuu" translate to in English? What country's motto is it? --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 22:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

According to ja:国と地域の標語の一覧 and en:List of national mottos, Tōitsu to seigi to jiyū (統一と正義と自由^?) is translation of West Germany's motto "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit", in English "Unity and Justice and Freedom". --Kusunose 03:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

That's still the motto of united Germany too. It's even written around the edges of our €2 coins. It's the beginning of the third verse of the Deutschlandlied, which is the only verse that is considered the national anthem. +An gr 08:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] June 30

[edit] Korean

What's the romanization(s) of the korean syllable 덩? --151.51.32.125 (talk) 14:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Depending on which Korean romanization system you use, tŏng, teng, or deong. +An gr

[edit] vocabulary,english

want to improve my english language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.72.192.38 (talk) 15:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Read books and newspapers in English, watch films and TV in English, speak to English-speaking people. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 15:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Take an English language class/course. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

You should also see the Simple EnglishEncyclopedia

[edit] How hard could it be to say my name?

My name is Arnon. How hard is it to pronounce that in english (for a native speaker)? aghnon (talk) 15:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

That depends on how it's supposed to be pronounced. I would say it as /ˈɑːnɒn/ or /ˈɑːnən/, both of which I can pronounce easily. Algebraist 16:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

In hebrew it is pronounced completely phonetically (/ˈɑʁnɒn/). In english I heard it pronounced /ˈɑʁnoʊn/. Clearly I'm not expecting people to pronounce my name right in english, is /ˈɑʁnoʊn/ easier to pronounce? aghnon (talk) 16:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

No, most English speakers have a very difficult time with [ʁ], which exists in English only in a few dialects in Northern England. Rhotic speakers (e.g. most North Americans, Irish people, and Scots) will say /ˈɑɹnoʊn/, /ˈɑɹnɑn/, or /ˈɑɹnən/, while non-rhotic speakers (e.g. most English people, Welsh people, and English speakers from the Southern Hemisphere) will say it the way Algebraist does. +An gr 16:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec) No, the final vowel should make no difference. It is probably just people not knowing the correct pronunciation rather than not being able to pronounce it. The difficulty will be with the 'r'. We don't have an [ʁ] in English, "ar" is usually pronounced just as a long 'a'. What you say it should be, without the 'r', (I can't get the IPA to display properly...) should be pronounceable easily enough, but some English speakers may have difficulty getting the guttural R (at least, that's what Wikipedia tells me it is, my knowledge of IPA in limited!) in there. --Tango (talk) 16:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I can't really see the differences between the R's:) aghnon (talk) 17:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, you typed

, the symbol for the voiced uvular fricative, which is the most common way "r" is pronounced in Israeli Hebrew. I used

, the symbol for the alveolar approximant, which is the most common way "r" is pronounced in English. If you can't see the difference between ʁ and ɹ, maybe you don't have an IPA-friendly font installed. +An gr 17:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, the actual Hebrew pronunciation is [ˈaʁnon], so the vowels do not really match anything in English either. — Emil J. 18:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I wrote ʁ because that's what's written about Resh. aghnon (talk) 19:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

There's also a systematic difference between the treatment of 'o' in foreign names and words by (most) Americans and (most) British people: unless the orthographic shape of the name suggests a 'long o' (eg the o is final, or followed by a single consonant and final vowel), most British people will read the 'o' as they would in words like 'not' and 'lost', whereas Americans will often pronounce it as they do 'note' or 'home'. For example Carl Sagan's 'cosmos' ("cozemoce" or /koʊzmoʊs/) came over oddly here, where we say /kɒzmɒs/ ("cozzmoss"). So in your case, most non-rhotic English people would say /a:nɒn/ not /a:nəʊn/.

[edit] Comma usage

Is this correct comma usage?

Use of this assay with a concentration of inhibitor in excess of 10 μM, yields unacceptable background levels and therefore restricts the use of compound concentrations to a maximum of 10 μM.

There's a pause when I speak it aloud but I'm not sure whether that rule has exceptions. ----Seans Potato Business 19:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I see no need for the comma there. By the way, The Elements of Style is a great read. Bus stop (talk) 19:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Me neither. If anywhere, I'd put a comma after "levels". But then, I'd start the second part "which therefore restricts" (before which a comma is mandatory anyway) or "and it therefore restricts" or "and therefore it restricts". If you believe that a comma is required every time there's a pause when speaking, I don't think it's as cut and dried as that. Sometimes we pause for effect to let something we've just stressed sink in, but in most cases there'd be no punctuation matching that pause. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I see. How about:

Surprisingly, we show by western blotting, that our compound increases MGM2 ubiquitination...

When I verbalise it, there are pauses in those locations, but removal of "we show by western blotting" would corrupt the sentence. Should I get rid of the second comma or add another between "show" and "by"? ----Seans Potato Business 19:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, either of those solutions. It's safe to have no commas in a short phrase like that, but if you have any, you must have 2 because "by western blotting" is parenthetical. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

It is incorrect to separate the subject and verb. The subject is "Use of this assay with a concentration of inhibitor in excess of 10 μM." It contains many modifiers in the form of prepositional phrases.151.213.160.3 (talk) 21:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I once read an interesting analysis of Walter Scott punctuation. It said that in his time, commas were more used for indicating pauses than for regulating units of meaning.Rhinoracer (talk) 10:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] July 1

[edit] Foreign Accents

I speak USA English (Northeast). I want to learn how to use a British accent or a German one, etc. However, I am horrible at mimicking. So, is there somewhere I can go so I can read how the pronounce the words phonetically in the different accents? --Reticuli88 (talk) 15:41, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The best point to start would probably by the IPA, since you possibly need an understanding of the sounds you want to make. From there you could go here to learn about the differences in vocalization between English accents or here for the German ones. From there to the accent it is just be only a short way. Or you could simply try listening to foreign speakers either on the Internet or otherwise. --91.6.52.81 (talk) 16:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I did a very quick google and came across a set of videos on youtube about learning the British accent. Here's the first in the series: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqU0pcpuIjY. The other videos in the series are on the right-hand side, and focus on specific vowel sounds. I must say, being British, that they aren't very good (the comments are to that effect, also), but it is a good start, I suppose. Northeast Americans tend to pronounce their vowels very flat and from the back of the mouth, whereas the British bring the vowels forward and "round" them off, so to speak. Just knowing that can help you begin practising. You've already got a rough idea how the British accent sounds, so start by moving your vowels forward in your mouth and trying to achieve the same effect. I haven't used the proper terms or confused you with IPA stuff deliberately, because from what I can tell, most people don't understand them anyway! Maedin\^talk 16:37, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't bother following that link, she speaks what Americans call a "British accent", not what any actual British people speak. (It's close to received pronunciation, but it's not it.) --Tango (talk) 17:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it is pretty terrible, :-/ But I still don't think it's a bad place to start, to at least start training to the very different sounds and mouth shapes. Besides, the OP hasn't made clear what sort of British accent she/he wants to learn. Maybe they really do want to do a comedy mock British accent,

. Anyway, the best advice is to actually live in Britain. It only took me a few months to blend in. Maedin\^talk 17:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree - being immersed in the accent is the best way, despite what the woman in that video says. Listen and practice, you don't really need to worry about the details of the phonetics unless they is a specific sound you can't get right. --Tango (talk) 18:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Good god, her accent is DIRE. What she calls the "short O" [3] is one of the key vowel sounds that Americans generally get very wrong, and she is no exception. Don't, whatever you do, follow her advice: she seems totally unaware that thought and hot are not supposed to rhyme when speaking with an English accent, for example. She sounds about as British as Anthony LaPaglia when he "pawped aap" as Daphne's brother in Frasier. Malcolm XIV (talk) 20:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I was actually waiting for someone to put up the very video's Maedin did. Do not use them, they are incredibly awful and mixed up. Seriously, she seems to be speaking some strange mixture of cockney and RP, with a few extra edges from neither. Some of her words start in one accent and finish in another! Only learn from those videos if you want a random comedy accent that doesn't resemble anything spoken by anyone. 89.168.19.118 (talk) 22:14, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I particularly liked her pronunciation of "coffee". It was a good approximation of an RP 'o' with the 'ee' coming from somewhere in Yorkshire, I think... --Tango (talk) 22:29, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I have no plans to visit Britain. I am just looking for, I guess, proper British accent, the kind you would hear in an British news program. I don't want to start listening and trying to repeat it. I would rather read it and see how it is pronouced phonetically. Is there a place where I can read it first? --Reticuli88 (talk) 18:21, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

British news readers stopped all using the same accent years ago. What they used to speak was received pronunciation. The "phonology" section of that article gives an introduction to how the accent works, but it isn't designed to be a how-to guide. I'm don't know of any good how-to guides (I'm not going to google it because I suspect the internet is full of bad guides and I would struggle to tell them apart). Be warned, if you do learn RP you will sound rather "posh". There is a lot of reverse snobbery in the UK, so that isn't necessarily a good thing. --Tango (talk) 18:30, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Can you read IPA? If not, trying to figure out what it sounds like from reading it is pointless. And even if you can read IPA, you'll never achieve a passable Received Pronunciation accent (which I assume is what you mean by a "proper British accent, the kind you would hear in a British news program") if you only read about it and don't also listen and repeat. +An gr 18:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Angr, you know the answer to that question already. Statistically speaking, nobody uses IPA and nobody understands it. Tempshill (talk) 23:24, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

That doen't alter the fact that everybody should use IPA, especially people wanting to learn pronunciation by reading. Algebraist 23:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

It isn't true anyway. Tens of thousands of people understand IPA and use it every day. Only people who can't be bothered to spend the 45 minutes required to learn it like to go around claiming, "Statistically speaking, no one uses it". +An gr 06:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Tens of thousands? Tens of millions is more likely, probably more. Pretty much everybody who learns a foreign language is exposed to IPA in one way or another these days (in Europe at least). To begin with, textbooks of English typically employ IPA. — Emil J. 10:41, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, tens of millions have been exposed to it and many of them probably even remember some of it ten years after their most recent exposure. What I said is, tens of thousands use it every day. +An gr 11:05, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

^{[citation needed]}. Tempshill (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying that I will do away with listening and mimcking. I want to start out by reading it phonetically. For instance, in English to German dictionaries, often times they will have the English word, the German translation then the way to say it phonetically: ie: ich liebe dich - "ee-hch lee-beh dee-hch". But in this case, I want it to be an English word that would spell out how it be pronounced in a different language. --Reticuli88 (talk) 18:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

That kind of phonetic spelling only gives you an approximation and is used to help people understand foreign spellings not learn foreign accents. The differences between different English accents are generally too subtle to show up in that kind of representation. --Tango (talk) 18:52, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, approximation is good because I am no where near understanding how to get this accent. Once I get this approximation, perhaps then I will listen and lastly try to mimick it. Sorry, but that is my learning process. --Reticuli88 (talk) 18:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

American pronunciations are approximately the same as British pronunciations, though, so you won't get anywhere. If you want to represent it in writing you need something like IPA which has "107 distinct letters, 52 diacritics, and four prosody marks" rather than the Latin alphabet which has just 26 letters.--Tango (talk) 19:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that the idea of a "British accent" is something of a solecism. If you are serious about sounding like someone from Britain, the first thing to do is stop asking people how to speak with a "British" accent, and instead ask them how to speak with an English accent (or a Scots accent, or a Welsh accent, if you prefer). Otherwise, all you'll get is self-appointed experts like the YouTube woman linked to above. Who, in their right mind, would take advice on adopting an accent from somebody who isn't even a native of the country in question?

The second thing to bear in mind is that it's not simply a question of substituting one set of vowel sounds for another. English and American accents also differ in diction, inflection, emphasis, vocabulary, etc etc. It's very difficult to get it right without one-on-one tuition. Malcolm XIV (talk) 21:08, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no such thing as an "English accent" either, for that matter. There is more variation between things like Received pronunciation, Scouse, Cockney, Geordie, etc. (all English) than there is between any American accents I've heard. Also, being a pedant, I must point out that differences in vocabulary would constitute a dialect rather than an accent. --Tango (talk) 21:52, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Up to a point. There is such a thing as an English accent; you've named four examples above. My point was not that there is a standard English accent (there isn't); it was that they are invariably called English accents as opposed to British accents. Americans' idea of what constitutes a "British" accent is almost invariably an English accent – usually, RP, Cockney, or some foul hybrid of the two.

To the OP: the International Dialects of English Archive has a few recordings of genuine accents (with fiendishly complicated IPA transcriptions) here [4]. Malcolm XIV (talk) 21:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, we clearly agree, we're just getting hung up on semantics (which is appropriate for the language ref desk!). There are accents which are English, there is no accent called "English" (it is just used as a description, not a name). --Tango (talk) 22:12, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] July 2

[edit] Three-character Chinese expression?

I'm kind of curious as to what the writing at File:Tee Shirt Slogan Sir Donald Tsang @ Demon Protest July-01-2009.jpg means. I found out the three individual characters (I think), but I have no real idea what they mean in combination. Thanks for any help... AnonMoos (talk) 06:08, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

勿當奴 -- "do not be a slave". It's a pun because 當奴 is a Cantonese transliteration for "Donald", as in Donald Tsang. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks... AnonMoos (talk) 19:58, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] I need an English to Chinese translation for a first date with a woman who moved here from China

I'm a retired wikipedian (I'm too perfectionistic, but I shall someday return once I get therapy for handling trolls better without getting flamebaited) and I met a woman who lived in China until 3 years ago, and came here for her schooling. I can write Hangul very well, and some Hanja, but never practiced written Chinese. I do not want a "google sounding translation", nor something too real. I am meeting her this weekend and want to give her a self-written message in her own language, and something which a first date might say. I am not asking for a love letter, but just a short two sentences of a messsge she might receive in China. I am not doing this to be a romantic Romeo, but just to be thoughtful. I would like to know what to write her, and what it means. Nothing over the top, but just something friendly and thoughtful that might remind her of her own culture. I might include a small, miniature rock fountain as a gift along with the message, or some colorful informal arrangement of flowers. The most important thing I want to know is what the message means, and if it's appropriate. I write Hangul very well, and I shall have no problem writing my short two sentence or three sentence letter in written Chinese. 74.5.237.2 (talk) 15:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Not only are you asking the Reference Desk to help you smooth-talk a girl, but you want us to do it in Chinese? Tempshill (talk) 23:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

And I will bet that a number of the Ref Desk's regulars are more than capable of doing it, too! // BL \\ (talk) 23:42, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm up for it! What would a Chinese woman like to hear from someone she's just met? Perhaps: 我想告诉你我很高兴认识你。我希望我们快当朋友。万事如意。Translation: I want to tell you that I'm very happy to meet you. I hope we will soon be friends. The last four characters are an idiom - "10,000 things as you wish". Steewi (talk) 00:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you so very much. I send my wikilove to all three of you! 74.5.237.2 (talk) 09:13, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Clabber Girl

This is a brand of baking products, and I've always wondered just what a "clabber girl" is. Clabber is apparently a food made from milk (something like cottage cheese). So, was a clabber girl someone who made this food, delivered it, or ate it ? (I'm thinking someone who made it, similar to a "milk maid".) And, did this company formerly sell clabber ? Any other explanation for this brand name is also welcome. StuRat (talk) 11:14, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

To paraphrase Brian Griffin, "I don't know what a Clabber Girl is, all I know is that I want her dead." +An gr 14:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I was going to write an answer, but it would have been quite similar to what this person has already said, so I'll just direct you there. (See also here and, especially, here.) The "Clabber Girl" is just the girl in the picture on the label, like the "St. Pauli Girl" on the beer label and other similar iconic females. Deor (talk) 15:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. So, I was close. They didn't actually sell clabber, but rather sold a product to replace it (as a leavening agent for baking). StuRat (talk) 17:18, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Resolved.

StuRat (talk) 23:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] meaning of symbol '/' ie (oblique) when used in english language

When we write 'A/B' whether it means 'A or B' , 'A and B', or 'A and/or B' 122.169.91.37 (talk) 14:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it means "and/or." Bus stop (talk) 14:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd say it usually means "or" and/or "and/or", but it could vary depending on context. +An gr 14:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

More possibilities are given at Slash (punctuation)#In English text. Algebraist 14:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay but does “and/or” mean “and and or”, “and or or”, and/or “and and/or or” in this context? — CharlotteWebb 09:25, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] What's this Japanese Commercial Saying?

this one —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.140.167 (talk) 16:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The young girl is repeating the word Tzpri(tsuppri). Tsuppari is a Sumo technique which is a series of hand thrusts as they do in the Pritz/Pretz commercial. And by repeating the word, it is supposed to be heard as Pritz. Oda Mari (talk) 18:46, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] July 3

[edit] Two-letter abbreviations required

Hello, I need a 2 letter abbrieviation of these languages, in that language - for instance I know German will be DE, and Spanish will be ES, but trying to find out what Hungarian will be (Is it WE?) is surprisingly difficult, for instance. Any help appreciated, thanks. 82.111.24.28 (talk) 09:10, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Language	Abbrev.
Bulgarian	bg
Czech	cs
Danish	da
English	en
Estonian	et
Finnish	fi
French	fr
German	de
Greek	el
Hungarian	hu
Icelandic	is
Italian	it
Latvian	lv
Lithuanian	lt
Norwegian	no
Polish	pl
Portuguese	pt
Romanian	ro
Slovakian	sk
Slovenian	sl
Spanish	es
Swedish	sv

See ISO 639, Special:Sitematrix, etc. — CharlotteWebb 09:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

More helpful for this purpose than ISO 639 is List of ISO 639-1 codes. Just search for the name of the language you want and you'll find both its two-letter and its three-letter ISO 639 code. (Languages that have no two-letter code are not included in this list, though.) +An gr 10:13, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, chaps 82.111.24.28 (talk) 12:04, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] March Hare ("Haigha")

In our March Hare article, it states '"Haigha" (which Carroll tells us is pronounced to rhyme with "mayor")'. Does anyone know the actual pronunciation of its name? Is it supposed to be "hare"? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 16:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually Carroll tells us only that the King pronounces it to rhyme with mayor, but since it is the name of Carroll's character, only Carroll can tell us how to pronounce it and he gives us no other instruction. Fouracross (talk) 16:14, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Given that the origin of the name is supposed to be the phrase "mad as a March hare", it's reasonably safe to assume it's pronounced the same as "hare". — Emil J. 16:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

In England, in my experience (and I may be wildly over-generalising), 'hare' normally rhymes with 'mayor', which is generally pronounced identically to 'mare'. Mikenorton (talk) 17:59, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Using "mare" rather than the possibly two-syllabled "mayor" would have been a better choice by Carroll in that case. The answer to the question though, is we that don't know, and unless somebody uncovers some document in which Carroll describes the pronunciation in more detail we never will. Fouracross (talk) 18:13, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

So hypothetically, if I were to name my new kitten Haigha, should I just pronounce it like I see it? I know it's technically however I want to pronounce it, just trying to get a good idea of what to do in this case. The kitten thing is really the reason I'm asking. And thanks for the responses so far. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 19:10, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

It was really just a little spelling-joke on Carroll's part -- he reintroduced the characters of the March Hare and Mad Hatter from Wonderland into Looking-Glass, but gave their names the pseudo-"Anglo-Saxon" spellings Haigha and Hatta. -- AnonMoos (talk) 19:51, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

'Mayor' is monosyllabic in my idiolect, and I think in most English accents: I dare say it was so for Lewis Carroll. --ColinFine (talk) 00:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The first 'Hall of Fame'

Does anyone know which was the first 'Hall of Fame' and when this phrase was first coined? I'm aware of many sporting & musical halls of fame, but cannot find out where this term was used first. Lisztian (talk) 17:10, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Baseball's hall of fame started in 1936 so before then. Rmhermen (talk) 17:27, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

See the end of the entry here. Slightly non-committal, but gives you a date of 1901. Fouracross (talk) 18:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The first use attested in the OED is in 1901: "The Columbia College ‘Hall of Fame’ includes various more or less useful Americans and excludes Edgar Allan Poe." Algebraist 18:03, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for that! Lisztian (talk) 18:30, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

The House of Fame is considerably older though meltBanana 16:43, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Supposed to rain, etc

Normally, when we say someone "is supposed to <do X>", we mean that there's a requirement or duty that they do it. It's often used in the past tense: "I'm not happy, Tommy, because you were supposed to clean up your room but all you've done is lie around reading comics".

When talking about the weather, people say "It's supposed to be hot today", or "It was supposed to be fine for their wedding, but it poured down". I understand that words can have different meanings in different contexts. In this case, "supposed" is more like "believed or expected". But when referring to past events, it's often said with a voice tone that suggests it was promised by the Weather Bureau, and the speaker is disappointed in not getting the weather they expected, which gets us back to the duty/requirement meaning. Is this because people believe official weather predictions blindly? Why would they do that, and not make contingency plans, knowing that, while they're generally accurate, there's no guarantee they'll be accurate on any given day and there's not a track record of 100% accuracy with weather predictions? Is it because weather presenters only say what happened today and what's expected to happen tomorrow, but virtually never acknowledge any inaccurate predictions they made yesterday? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

If some people have irrational attitudes about weather forecasts, I think that's beyond the scope of the Reference Desk.

But when you say that something is "supposed to" be true, you're not saying that someone promised it would be: only that it will be true if people do what's expected of them. What's expected of weather forecasters is correct predictions. We know we won't always get them, but we expect them. Similarly, if you're dirving along and approaching a green traffic light, there isn't supposed to be any cross traffic -- but sometimes a car on the cross street has a brake failure and runs the light. What's expected of the other cars is that they will stop, but they might not. --Anonymous, 00:32 UTC, July 4, 2009.

Jack has proven by many previous posts to be a brilliant mind and therefore I interpret his question as being of linguistic nature, not of a nature of trying to understand the obvious, which is that people are irrational, and which he knows very well.

So I'll try to refocus: "I am supposed to stop here, but I won't", means I had promissed, or agreed, or the law says, that I would go no further, but I decide to break the agreement/rule/promise/common understanding.

"It was supposed to rain today, but it doesn't" means that someone had studied the weather and promised us some rain, but the rain didn't come. There are 2 aspects to that: first, the rain is personalised, that is it can decide to come, or not, like an individual. Language does that all the time, it is interesting, most of the time we don't even pay attention to it.

Second, there seems to be the funny assumption by the language that the the weather guys told the rain to come, so that it would know it should be here. Just like when someone write a law that says that I should not cross this line, but I don't stop, there is the assumption that I have been told in the statement "you were supposed to stop here". Or at least an assumption that I have read the law. The English language, in this construction, seems to assume that the rain watches the weather channel, just like the law makers assume that I actaully will read what they write. --Lgriot (talk) 09:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

‘It is supposed’ often carries the meaning ‘There is a supposition that’. Ian Spackman (talk) 10:04, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

By the way it seems that there is a 2 way relationship here: first the mind sculpts the language and creates these expressions, giving the rain a personality and therefore some duty and expectations, and second, the language sculpts the mind in the sense that people actually get disappointed when the rain does not behave as it was supposed to, which is like if they actually expected it to be a person, simply because the language has expressions that make use of it like a person. --Lgriot (talk) 10:11, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

If Jack would rephrase his "requirement or duty" into there's "an expectation" then there's not going to be a be a conflict. Tommy was expected to clean his room and "it" was expected to rain. I suppose it will work because it's supposed to work. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 18:07, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] July 4

[edit] Welsh epitaph

What does "Priod hawddcar a thad cofalus, Heddwch iw lwch." mean in English? Thank you, 199.111.188.100 (talk) 03:37, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Soduko

Why can't *soduko be a Japanese word? --88.77.239.146 (talk) 14:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Because standard Japanese doesn't contain the syllable 'du' - where you would otherwise expect it, it is normally realised as 'dzu'. So the closest that could occur would be 'sodzuko'. I don't know whether you can concoct a word of this form - I don't think either 'sodzu' or 'tsuko' ('dzuko') exists as a morpheme, so I think it would have to be trimorphemic 'so-dzu-ko'. --ColinFine (talk) 15:37, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't it be a single morpheme with three syllables? Are higashi "east" and midori "green" polymorphemic or monomorphemic? +An gr 19:03, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language