Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council/Proposals

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WikiProject Council
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[edit] Messy!

This page is a mess. Besides the page's size, the most glaring problem is the fact that some users are adding proposals to the top of the page and some are adding them to the bottom. We should specify where to add proposals and order the ones already on the page by date. Should new entries be added to the top or the bottom, then? And what is the process for removing proposals? ~EdGl ★ 01:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The page definitely needs to be cleaned up; the suggestions need to be reordered and culled, the instructions need to be expanded and clarified, and the entries need to be updated to use the current layout. The whole process probably wouldn't hurt from being rethought and definitely needs to be advertised better as well. At some point, if I have time, I do intend to do more cleanup on this page; I've already done some minor stuff. 「ダイノガイ千？！」^{(Dinoguy1000)} 05:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

But can you discuss how you're going to implement these changes so we can, well, discuss them, come to a consensus and all that? I'll post my ideas for cleanup sometime later today. ~EdGl ★ 13:53, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I looked at the talk page of WikiProject Football and they use two bots on the talk page - User:MiszaBot and User:HBC Archive Indexerbot. I'll try and find out how they work. As for the putting proposals at the top or bottom, you are having to rely on other people for that, although if the page is small you could do it yourself (not now, the page is MASSIVE). Other ways would be putting it at the top of the page and in the edit notice (see a working one here at the top of the page (but don't edit)). Hope it helps. DeMoN2009 17:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

It would seem to be stating the obvious, but the page really needs some kind of categorisation. The WP:RFC categories would probably do. Initially just section headings, but maybe later sub-pages. Rd232 ^talk 18:46, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I guess a good start would be to create Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Task forces to separate the task force proposals from the wikiproject proposals. Should I go ahead and do this? ~EdGl ★ 18:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually I think a better idea would be to set this up like WP:AFD and have subpages for every proposal. And unlike AFD, we can simply link to the subpages rather than show their contents on the main proposal page itself. ~EdGl ★ 19:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Subpage idea

How about we put this on the top of the page:

{{SUBST:WikiProject Proposal
 |ProjectName = The proposed project's name
 |Description = A description of the proposed project.
 |USER1= ~~~~
}}

Note we can turn that last step into a template, for example {{proposal | parameter}}, where the parameter is obviously the name of the proposed WikiProject. Can someone create this template for me or direct me to an already-existing template that performs this same function? I'm probably going to "be bold" and implement this (although it will be a nightmare to create subpages for the already-existing proposals); does anyone object? ~EdGl ★ 20:30, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Good idea, but I still think that task forces and WikiProjects should be split apart - maybe Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/WikiProject proposals and Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Task force proposals, and also make the guides to each one better. DeMoN2009 20:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, is there no way to automatically generate the text? I think they might do that at peer review, but I'm not sure. I'll go and check. DeMoN2009 20:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'll hold off on implementing this until we get all the details you mentioned figured out. I know WP:AFD has a "preloaded text" option, try looking into that (I'm busy in real life so I can't do much more today). ~EdGl ★ 20:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I found it at {{Peer review}} (should have known that), that they actually preload a template. I took a bit of code from it:

<span class="plainlinks" style="font-weight:bold">[{{fullurl:Wikipedia:Peer review/{{PAGENAME}}/archive{{{archive|}}}|action=edit&editintro=Template:PR/editintro&preload=Template:PR/preload2}} Language and literature]</span>

Which generates the following: Language and literature

That should be all we need (hopefully)! I'll be trying to use it and then I think I'll go to sleep. DeMoN2009 21:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

We have a breakthrough!

<span class="plainlinks" style="font-weight:bold">[{{fullurl:User:Alistairjh/Sandbox10/Test Drive|action=edit&editintro=Template:WikiProject_Proposal/Guide&preload=Template:WikiProject_Proposal}} Create page]</span>

Shows as: Create page (Currently opens a subpage of my sandbox for editing!). Off to sleep. DeMoN2009 21:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks good, well done! It's a big enough change that it probably should get more input though, so I've put a note on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council. Rd232 ^talk 12:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Right, I fixed the box and put the final version below. DeMoN2009 10:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Well this is such a big step forward I think we could be WP:BOLD and go ahead and do it. On the other hand there's only been input from a couple of people so it might be better to wait a full week from when it was first mentioned (26 March). Also I'd like to put RFC-style categories for the proposals, if only as section headings - how easy will it be to do that with the sub-page system (assuming no-one objects)? Rd232 ^talk 17:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thought. Does this transclude the subpages, AFD-style, or not? If not, maybe we can create a bot to update some details on the main page, eg when proposal created, date of last comment, how many comments, number of support comments, something like that. (NB I know zip about creating bots.) Rd232 ^talk 17:15, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Use the number one Wikipedia tip - copy someone else. The only way I fine-tuned the template was from the helpful people at Wikinews, and chances are, if a similar system is in at Wikipedia:Peer review, we can steal their bot! DeMoN2009 18:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Rd232, "section headings" seems to imply ordering by subject. I think they should be organized by date, with the section headings being months of the year. ~EdGl ★ 21:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I would say date order within broad topics. Most people will only have an opinion on a wikiproject if it falls in a topic they're interested in. Rd232 ^talk 21:55, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Any way we can implement both? ~EdGl ★ 22:48, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I think we might need to ask other people about these processes, as we are really getting nowhere - all I did was copy a few things from peer review. I looked at the bot they use for peer reviews, but I couldn't find out how to use it. However, I'll try my best to find out. DeMoN2009 15:17, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

It was the wrong bot! Found the right one. DeMoN2009 15:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Implementation

Hey guys in case you didn't know I put the new directions on the proposals page and started "subpaging" current proposals last night (EST). Hopefully it will be completed by today :) ~EdGl ★ 13:32, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Good... OnHoliday 15:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

It looks very organized. Good job. The only problem I see with this at the moment is that edits to the proposals page triggered watchlist vultures to investigate (the page's only traffic), whereas with the new layout, the watchlist vultures will only be watching their own proposal as well as the titles of the new ones. I'm more likely to read the proposal if I don't have to click another link to access it. For a page that people complain has no traffic, this isn't helping. Bob the Wikipedian ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Use this link: Special:RecentChangesLinked/Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals. It will get rid of the userpages once the page is finished. OnHoliday 10:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I do see your concern, Bob the Wikipedian, but I think the pros far outweigh the cons. I was wondering if there's anything we can do to solve this problem, like track the number of support votes on the main page or something. Any ideas? ~EdGl ★ 15:16, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to change the template

Specifically removing the "SWPP" section. Please reply here. ~EdGl ★ 17:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd remove that AND the first "Support" section. No need for two. Bob the Wikipedian ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] This page makes me sad...

Look at it! People barely contribute even though this can be an important thing on Wikipedia! The page is messy and hard to navigate, make sense of and contribute to! Surely there must be some ways to make this better?

Honestly, apart from the subpage idea and publicising it, this page doesn't look like it can get better. This is supposed to separate the good projects from the bad, and when (if there is a small chance people would ask) people ask me "How do I create a WikiProject?", I think I would have to say that instead of going here, I would just say "Create a UserProject" (click to see what it actually is). So maybe the best way would be to send a bot to all projects to publicise it, but (if we are going to make the subpage idea) not until this page has been drastically improved. DeMoN2009 15:42, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Can we do something with Wikipedia:Centralized discussion? Rd232 ^talk 01:01, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Like what? Bob the Wikipedian ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:07, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

If I knew I'd have been more specific... :( Rd232 ^talk 14:55, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we could find an unobtrusive way to incorporate announcements of newly proposed projects/taskforces with the notice board? Bob the Wikipedian ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

That's actually a good idea. Once I've finished this stuff I'll see what I can do. OnHoliday 10:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject vs. task force

It seems like often, someone will propose a WikiProject, only for people to oppose by saying "scope too narrow -- this should be a task force instead." I was wondering if we could be more flexible with the WikiProject/task force thing, meaning the proposer will propose something, which can be either a WikiProject or task force, they don't decide. The voters (most likely the "WikiProject Council/Proposals regulars") make an educated decision whether it should be a WikiProject or task force, and come to an agreement with the proposer and everyone else involved in the discussion section.

Benefits:

1. It will eliminate the need for the proposer (who may be inexperienced) to decide which one "to go for," giving the proposer "less to worry about" while proposing.
2. It will eliminate the "oppose, should be task force instead" rationale mentioned before.
3. We can then remove the big, scary warning sign on the top of the page.

Support or oppose? ~EdGl ★ 15:29, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

That does seem like a good idea, although we will need to keep an eye on it to make sure that loads of people are not saying WikiProject because it's their favourite band. OnHoliday 20:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea. That will prevent great task force ideas from extinction due to discouragement of the project approach. Bob the Wikipedian (talk · contribs) 17:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Going from task force to WikiProject

Just wondered what the procedure is for this, as I may need to do it myself and it would be good if there was some kind of guideline for it. OnHoliday 20:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm... when would a task force ever have to be made into a WikiProject? ~EdGl ★ 00:03, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that there is a proposal that actually requests this, but sometimes a task force will find that:

• It has outgrown its parent WikiProject (this hardly ever happens).
• The assessment or notability criteria of the parent project is inconvenient for the task force.
• The parent WikiProject is inactive.

These are just a few, although I don't think all of the reasons would mean it has to become a WikiProject. OnHoliday 07:13, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

IMHO, a project has several objectives which can never be fully accomplished, creating an ongoing array of tasks, whereas a taskforce could either be ongoing or have an end goal (at which point it should be shut down) and have a more limited array of tasks and objectives. A project should be composed of taskforces.

Having said this, a taskforce should not become a project until it has objectives such as "improve the articles dealing with..." or some other objective which can never be considered complete. Theoretically, a goal such as "add transwiki links to every article" is something that could be completed and then done occasionally until completion again, although it would take a sort of supercomputer to do this. But "improving" is not something that can actually be quantified, and should (in general) be a project. However, if there is not a broad spectrum of articles that could be improved by the project, this is another reason to call it a task force. The hypothetical task force for improving articles on They Might Be Giants band members could graduate to project status if it broadened its scope to Novelty Music and Bands or if TMBG suddenly increased in size from two significant members to 2000 significant members. Bob the Wikipedian (talk · contribs) 17:23, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

True. How many articles would the task force have to have? Because I think about 1000, but I know there are task forces with loads of articles who prefer being a task force. OnHoliday 07:32, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

No reason that a Task force should not have an open-ended goal, like Bob the W is suggesting would make it a WikiProject instead. The wp:MILHIST project has many open-ended Task Forces, which can together coexist forever, working on different geographic regions and periods of history, but sharing, forever, common machinery: assessment tools, elections of coordinators, and other, well, military-type, coordination that they have going. I haven't looked at the specific proposal yet. doncram (talk) 07:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I was just wondering about how to do it, just in case the situation occured (which probably will happen sometime). Admittedly, WP:MILHIST is basically the role model for other WikiProjects and task forces. OnHoliday 07:53, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] List to be archived/deleted/whatever

I'm going through the list right now and will flag on this page any that have been created after reaching a consensus. I'm not up to par on the archival techniques, so I'll let someone else do that. Bob the Wikipedian ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:50, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

• Historic sites
• Wikipedia-Books
• United States courts and judges
• Norfolk & Suffolk
• Organismal Biomechanics
• Capital District

Bob the Wikipedian ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:06, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

When changing up the page I retained the phrase "all failed proposals older than 4 months will be archived." If we still agree with that I guess we can remove the links to the subpages and put {{db-g6}} (for technical deletions) on the subpages themselves. Before tagging them however, we should first ask the proposer if they want the page kept for historical reasons. Perhaps we can make a template like {{proposalpassed}} (and even {{proposalfailed}}) to put on proposer's talk, asking them if they want their proposal page userfied or just deleted (or in the case of "proposalfailed," telling them their proposal has been archived). Alternatively, we can archive both failed and successful proposals, and for the successful ones we can create a template like {{oldafdfull}} for the project's talk page saying it was "approved." ~EdGl ★ 14:42, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Um...sounds good, I think, except it appears my proposal is nearing those four months with 3/5 supports. But that shouldn't affect the decision. What are you defining as "failed?"Bob the Wikipedian ^{(talk • contribs)} 03:44, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm.. that's not something I really thought about actually. What does a "support" vote mean? Does it mean "I approve of this project being made, it would be useful" or "I would join the project if created"? Speaking of the latter, is this the main/only place to recruit members to join the proposed project? Anyway back to your question, if nobody opposes the proposal, 4 supports (other than nom) I would consider "pass -- create project," 2-3 supports "borderline" (proposer make the call?). I think we have to take into account that not many people see this page, which is probably the main issue. ~EdGl ★ 21:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Taking this into consideration, I feel it's only fair to keep all the current proposals on this page at least until a specified period of time after the page reaches that "point" where we feel it's noticed. Once the publicity comes, then we can think about archiving the ones that haven't been launched yet. As for the ones that are launched already, the announcement board has a place for recruiting new members, but it's probably a good idea to leave them on this page for about a month or more for publicity. Once the project has been launched, it might be appropriate to design an ad for the ad box, although I rarely see the ad box anywhere. I've designed one for Virgo in case it ever moves into the Wiki space, and have not yet assigned it to the ad box.

This whole promotion deal really needs work, that's for sure. Bob the Wikipedian ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Have to agree with you there. Unless you start spamming people who may be intrested with a notice about this, we really need to keep them on there as long as possible. (I was actually going to say six months, but we might need longer.) OnHoliday 07:55, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Spamming as you described ought to be grounds for proposal failure, lol. There's getting the word out, and there's spamming. Bob the Wikipedian ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Rallying support on creation

WikiProjects and Task Forces get proposed here without people who'd be interested even noticing, and I'd imagine this has scuppered the success of various projects that could have worked. For this reason, I think two things are necessary:

1. More notice made of this page and what it contains. Someone recently asked where this page was, which proves that is simply isn't findable enough in WP. We need it to be more discoverable, and easy to access. This probably means better linking from such things as the Community portal (perhaps a smaller text under "WikiProjects and Task Forces" saying "(proposals)"?)
2. Support of some sort of limited canvassing when proposals are made. I think editors should be encouraged to find interested parties elsewhere in Wikipedia without entering spam territory, but rather in areas where a positive response will be met. For example, the proposer of "WikiProject Kirby" would be encouraged to leave notes of their proposal at WikiProject Video games and the main Kirby article. Perhaps we could even provide editors with templates that they can subst there, so they don't need to go through much extra effort and a professional, recognisable request could be made.

I just feel bad that we're not encouraging more editors to try starting such WikiProjects, and that editors who do try aren't finding the interested parties that probably exist. What do others think of implementing such measures? Greg Tyler ^{(t • c)} 23:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

And also, I think the form on this page should have a "preload" parameter so the page loads with instructions. Because loading a blank page is a bit un-nerving. It's nice to find something already there. The first parameter can be drawn from the title of the page, so user's would just need to add a description and their signature in well marked places. For ease of use. Greg Tyler ^{(t • c)} 23:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC)